Michael Lewis on Amazing Government Workers

·32 min·3 clips

Arthur A. Allen invented a science to track drifting objects at sea, leading to the rescue of a man who fell off a cruise ship.

The episode begins with Al Franken introducing the topic of government workers and recent mismanagement, like firing nuclear weapons security staff. Michael Lewis joins to discuss his book 'Who Is Government?', which aims to highlight amazing civil servants. Lewis explains he was struck by the caliber of federal workers during research for his previous book 'The Fifth Risk'. He assembled a team of writers to profile these individuals, finding most came to the same conclusion about their value. The first story is about Arthur A. Allen, an oceanographer in the Coast Guard who invented the science of how objects drift at sea, saving thousands of lives, including a man who fell off a cruise ship. Lewis notes Allen's humility, as he didn't realize his work was story-worthy. Next, Lewis discusses Christopher Mark, a former coal miner who solved the problem of mine roof collapses, preventing deaths; his story involves family drama with his father, an engineer who studied Gothic cathedrals. The episode then covers Heather Stone at the FDA, who created the Cure ID app to share treatments for rare diseases like the brain-eating amoeba balamuthia, but faced lack of support. Lewis critiques current government cuts, linking them to Project 2025 and actions by figures like Elon Musk, who gutted USAID. He argues these cuts are based on arrogance and ignorance, not efficiency, and will have long-term consequences, such as increased deaths. The conversation touches on the budget deficit and the small portion spent on civil service. Lewis emphasizes that government workers are often mission-driven and underappreciated. The episode concludes with Lewis thanking Franken, highlighting the contrast between heroic workers and destructive policies.

As heard by us

Michael Lewis gives government expertise a human face as Franken weighs what DOGE may put at risk.

Michael Lewis and Al Franken argue that public service matters most when specialized knowledge keeps disaster at bay. Lewis tells the stories of Arthur Allen, whose understanding of how objects drift helped the Coast Guard find people at sea, and Christopher Mark, who figured…

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Why you'd press play

You'll meet public servants whose low-profile expertise shaped sea rescues, coal-mine safety, and nuclear security.

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